Talk: Nasu Kinoko X Urobuchi Gen

Uro: You use past tense in your novels...right?

Nasu: I stopped that.

Uro: Oh?

Nasu: Honestly, I like making games. There are painful points, yes. If there are 4 heroines, then I have to write 4 scripts. But I don't like writing stories for heroines where the other heroines aren't involved. I want to make a family structure. If there are 4 heroines, then their lines will all run parallel to each other at the same time, with no paradoxes. So, in short, fun brings pain. (laughs) However, not doing things this way and making the story end cleanly makes it more interesting, and quicker to write...so I have this dilemma. But I'm having fun right now. I have my regrets for my time as an author, but I don't have any desires in that area anymore. I was just terrorized by some obsession that I had to write a novel by the time I turned 20. So I was barely able to finish one, sent it to a publisher, and got rejected...then I started working solely on Tsukihime, and realized there was no need to force myself to keep running...I just thought about enjoying myself, and hopped between being an author and a script writer. But right now, Kara no Kyoukai is the finest doujin product I feel I can create. Do I still have passion as an author...? I thought about it, but I just keep getting less interested...I just feel that without art and music, my sentences lose their stamina...(laughs)

Uro: See, you have gills, so you were able to freely play around with that stuff. Novels are a straight line. Maybe you're more suited for that, Nasu-san...to be honest, I liked Kara no Kyoukai more than Tsukihime. I think because I'm swimming without gills.

Nasu: I did everything I wanted to do in Kara no Kyoukai. "I want to read this kind of story, but it's nowhere to be found. Alright then, I'll make it myself." I wrote it to satisfy myself. Then I had some empty space. Then we started talking about Tsukihime, and I thought "OK, I'll change my direction with this game." But in writing the script, I thought, making games is fun! (laughs)

Uro: Games are filled with every type of expression. Picture, sound, sentences, story. But...but I really don't have the capacity to put on gills and move around like that. I think I really want to work on straighter stuff. But shifting to novels after all this...losing the pictures and sound for simply text...I think going only with words is a bit too high an order for me.

Nasu: When I was first writing Tsukihime, I was writing it like a novel, and I was told that they wouldn't be able to make a game from it. So I cut out all the descriptions of the characters' faces, since the pictures would express that...and then, after I got used to writing this type of script, and we finished, I thought, "Will I be able to write novels again?" I was afraid I had gotten too used to the format. That's what Kagetsu Tohya and Tsukihime Extra Chapter were born from. There was one story in there written in a novel style. It was kind of like a test for myself. I wanted to see if I could still write a novel...so I was selfish and just did what I wanted. (laughs) My condition wasn't as big a despair as I thought it'd be. And I was able to write something like a novel. (laughs)

Uro: Really, though, when you don't write for a while, it's scary how dull it seems like your senses become.

Nasu: But they say that what you spend 10-20 years doing becomes painted on your genes...so once you start writing, it all comes back.

Uro: To be honest...I'd really like to create a "game-ish" game.

Nasu: There was a really scary catchphrase on the back of Kikokugai. (laughs) "The first in a Cyber-Novel series." (laughs)

Uro: Hahahaha. (laughs) Everyone talked to me about that. Well, when I thought it up for the first time, I thought "This would work better as a novel." So I thought that'd fly. But Kikokugai wasn't criticized as much as I thought it'd be, so I thought 4,400 yen was OK as the price. At first I had no confidence, though. Novel + Soundtrack + CG collection...it all depended on how much the customers valued that direction. The whole discussion about halving the price got us into a fight about whether or not we'd actually be able to make a profit.

Nasu: But, you sold more...than expected?

Uro: That's what it looks like.

ADV games provide possibilities.

Nasu: What kind of games do you play? Consumer action games, or RPGs?

Uro: Hmm...I don't like RPGs and adventure games. "This isn't a game, it's a game book," I think. If I really want to play a game, I want to play an online game or some kind of virtual experience. So I'm always playing action games. Lately I've been playing Devil May Cry. With RPGs...I could never finish Final Fantasy all the way to the end. I thought, "You know, instead of playing this, I'd rather just read a book." In terms of making endings, there's just a certain wall you hit. With all the partitions, you may end up with 20 or 30, and there's no way you can do that. In action games, it's all about where you shoot the gun. Even I have my doubts when it comes to adventure game elements, though. During a meeting, when I show a flow chart of an adventure game and I'm asked "Is this game?", it's hard for me to say "Yes."

Nasu: I don't really think of them as "game" games, but more like visual novels...

Uro: Mmm...yes, this is a tough question. It's a question of how much more adventure games can really pull the game industry. I feel like their influence is really declining. I feel like there are still ways to do them...but I also feel like there's a lot of general doubt towards the whole genre. Users always watch all the different endings of a game all at once, and feel that there's no difference between that and playing through the game each time for each different ending.

Nasu: And lately games' openings are all the same...including Tsukihime. Once a heroine comes in, though, the user can choose to follow her to the end, then they have to go back to the beginning and repeat everything.

Uro: Yes. The whole idea of really utilizing that outlook on the world to see varying possibilities...it's very convenient as the "soil" of a 2-D creation, and it may be what critics use to judge adventure games. But in that case, though, it isn't the "games," but the setting and the characters -- the "ingredients" that are being judged. With novels and movies, their one-track stories close the doors to all other possibilities. They negate all other possibilities. But games, on the contrary, throw the decision to the users, and let them play with the world as they wish. I think leaving the story open like that is how adventure games should be...it might even be their true purpose for existence. That's why I think true "game" elements or what have you may not really be what people want.

Nasu: I think the fact that there are so many meaningless choices in games today may add to some of that. But when you go into an unknown world for the first time and see a "left" or "right" decision that will clearly take your destiny down a different path, I think it gives the game charm...Age Soft does a lot of these "extreme choices," and I think that's where the true charm of adventure games lies. If you reload the save you'll be able to see what happens down to the other path, but you still won't know what's ahead on the path you're on now. So you end up playing both paths at the same time, going down one way and thinking "Oh, so if I had gone down this path back there, this would have happened..." Then, finally, the ending is completely different. It's like a jack-in-the-box. I think that's what makes adventure games fun.

Uro: When a jack-in-box is opened, it surprises the user, and then that's it. You have to wonder how long customers will keep paying for a one-trick horse like that.

Nasu: It has to do with how fleshed-out the contents of the game are...it's true even if you manage to surprise people once, there's still that worry that they'll eventually get bored with the product...however, remember the three greatest human desires: sleep, eating, and sex. (laughs) If our game manages to connect to one of those (the erotic side), then we won't have to worry about people losing interest. (laughs)

Q: So does game planning turn into a struggle of balance between erotic and other content?

Uro: To be honest, I think that you have to be extremely pessimistic with all adventure game stories. I try to think about what kind of game current customers who are interested in romance are looking for...and this is just my hypothesis, but I think games are fine as being kind of like tutorials, like what we were talking about earlier. They're packages of character materials, and then a scenario comes with it kind of like an example of what can be done with that package. It's just one example using someone's 2D guidelines, or imagination guidelines, or whatever...I've started to feel like things are fine staying this way. Using the character materials as a starting point, and then having the users use their own imaginations, is probably the best shape for a "moe game," I feel. And if that's true, then scenario writers have no purpose. So I'd be in danger...now I'm really starting to scare myself.

Nasu: I don't like criticizing others' works, but you know the game Hajimete no Orusuban? That really shocked me. I knew logically it was natural that it became a hit, but at the same time, I was really shocked. When that game came out, I thought about quitting making games. I just felt like I wouldn't be needed anymore.

Uro: Yes, I know how you feel.

Nasu: Until that point, it may sound naive, but I really believed in the power of the story. (laughs)

Q: So are you saying that in order to make a really good game, you need no scenario writer?

Uro: It has to do with the difference between a "game scenario" and a "story scenario."

Nasu: I think from the start, you have to decide whether the plot is better suited toward a game or a novel. If you have a plot that's suited for a game, you have to make sure it's good just as a story too. I think that's what it means to be a game scenario writer. If you just write a story and it ends up having no game functionality, then I think it's better without any...

Uro: It depends on the planning and the system. For example, this will seem really extreme, but let's look at Street Fighter II. I actually think that game has great story power. When you try to think about it, you may find yourself wondering "How can he pull off a Shoryuken with such expert timing?!" And bam, there you already have a story. That's all coming from a system level, where you have things like "this character is a wait character, this character is a speed character." They're sowing the seeds of good stories in the basest settings of their characters. That's probably what I'm getting at when I talk about game stories.

Nasu: Because the materials are so limited, the users are forced to make live interpretations...

Uro: Or how about expansive stories? Things like rapid-fire comedy acts, tabletop RPGs...what's the right word for those kind of stories? Anyway, I think this sort of ad lib, "instance drama" storytelling is the kind of stories that are suited for games. In that case, though, it means the scenario writer doesn't need to work on writing ability or anything like that...

Nasu: So you mean their job is basically to decorate?

Uro: Decorate...yeah, that's all they can do. I think. For example, to read ahead and think "well, there could be an interesting combination here," and then set it up...basically to think up and set up entertaining combination patterns.

Nasu: Yeah. You know what I think must be really difficult, is to make a fighting game...the action in those games is what processes the story, right? I think the best example is when using a special move changes the scene that comes next.

Uro: I think that great action games can make the best drama. For example, "This move is really strong, but it leaves me open." The problem is left in the users' hands. Like, "are you man enough to use this move?!" (laughs) "You're gonna be countered no matter what, you know?"! The excitement is in getting put in a sticky situation and still having the guts to use such a move...then getting lauded for it later. (laughs)

Q: There is a lot of "imagine the details for yourselves" kind of situations in entertainment these days, do you think that games should be including these situations too?

Uro: Hmmm...honestly, I think that good scenarios have no need for any kind of those situations. Whether or not it makes the users happy or not, those are the kind of scenarios we respect. With that said, though, I think if we were to create simply with that idea in mind, our ideas would stray far from what a "good game" is.

Nasu: Good scenarios for games don't create a single construction, but lay out every single part, and then let the users connect them to create a finished product.

Uro: I think that's the best case scenario. And even better if the finished product is more entertaining than the separate parts.

Nasu: But what about leaving situations up to the players? I know there are some players who will always come up with crazy ideas...and to them, it'll turn into a situation they like, so it'll be extremely entertaining to them, but...

Uro: True, if you're looking at adventure games as games "you don't need technique to enjoy," then there's no real problem. With action games, in order to enjoy the story and the real drama, you need to have mastered the system to a certain level, and someone watching you do it won't have any idea what's going on. I think, though, that ever since Virtua Fighter came out, the number of people who enjoy those kinds of games has been dropping. Maybe that sort of game is going out of style...maybe games are things that should be enjoyed on a lighter scale. Either way, adventure games aren't games that are meant to be "played well." Let's look at Alicesoft's Daiakuji. This is a deep, difficult game, but whenever the player makes a mistake, they can always just go restart from a save file. Where's the drama in that? (laughs)

Nasu: I have a hardcore friend who "never makes a single save file when playing games like Daiakuji. And I think that to people like them, games like Daiakuji are a lot of fun. Because you can't look back. I think normal users, though, when they miss a certain event, will go back and reload their save...

Uro: It really makes you question the needs of the users.

Q: What do you think about online RPGs? Do they have a sort of live ad lib appeal to them?

Uro: Yeah, we really can't compete with them. That's why we strive for a higher quality story. The only thing is, when I'm asked "Should you be writing stories specifically FOR games," I start to wonder.

Nasu: I wonder why there are so many pornographic games like these being published. Maybe not when compared to consumer games, but there are still a lot, and it creeps me out...because I don't know why. What's the big attraction?

Uro: Because it's a springboard for many things that would never appear in consumer games.

Nasu: I do think there are a lot of users who like these games because they can enjoy a totally different type of game than their typical consumer games. But now I'm starting to see less and less of the types of games that I actually like. I start to think there's no demand for them anymore.

Q: Pornographic games stimulate lust...is stimulating lust the same thing as stimulating the imagination? In regard to "moe" games, is that the only thing that separates them from consumer games?

Uro: Well, with erotic games, they're made with the foresight that they're going to make the users fantasize no matter what.

Nasu: 5 or 6 games come out a week, so I think a lot of people shy away from them as games that require a lot of stamina to keep up with. Personally, though, I'd like to enjoy a brand-new game within one or two days, in a short time period...that's why I love Kikokugai. (laughs)

Uro: Hahaha! (laughs) You know, since I make a living off making games, I've completely lost my idea of how many hours of gameplay = satisfaction. I spend dozens of hours on action games, so... (laughs)

Nasu: I think you pretty much have to go to consumers with an action game for it to survive, don't you think? Because PC users want these erotic games that they can enjoy within a short time span, get through quickly, and find something to "moe" about. They're looking for a more compact experience.

Uro: I thought Daiakuji would change the erotic game world, but they still keep coming out day after day...so it's like nothing's really changed. (laughs)

Nasu: I don't think typical studios possess the stamina it takes to create a game like Daiakuji...we adults don't have the time we used to, you know? University students, now they have a lot of time on their hands, so their perspective changes. Since they have so much time, they may prefer games that they can enjoy for longer...which will survive? (laughs)

Uro: Full-time workers and university students do use their time quite differently.

Nasu: We usually get home around 9 or 10 PM...once we eat and take a shower, we only have about two hours to play games...and if I had two hours, then I'd play Devil May Cry. (laughs)

Uro: "Hahahaha!" (laughs)

Q: Sim games these days truly take hours upon hours to complete. Once people grow up and get jobs, they find that they don't have the time to really play through games anymore...

Nasu: Although, when I buy games and see "takes 100 hours to complete" on the box, I think "Wow, so I get to play it for 100 hours!"

Uro: Where do you squeeze out 100 hours from?! (laughs) I don't think games can sell solely on hours of gameplay like they used to be able to...

Nasu: I think more and more people will start to want more from the graphics side. Like, 100 CGs won't be enough...really? Is that really not enough? (laughs) I think the new average level will become something like 100~150 CGs...I mean, look at how much they're charging for a game! 8,800 yen! I think I may be digging my own grave with this comment. (laughs) Takeuchi-kun's gonna kill me. (laughs)

Uro: I've been hearing that a lot, actually. And things like "What constitutes the 8800 yen price tag?"

Nasu: If everyone would approve of it from a business perspective, I'd like to price our games at 8,800 yen too. As long as we don't spend money on other things, though, (like advertising, etc.) then I think we can price them cheaper.

Uro: You know, I think, completely unrelated to business, that we just need money. We have a bond of trust between the creative people and the management people in my company, so we can both focus on our separate roles. It really helps. If we were both poking our noses in the other's business, things just wouldn't work out. Especially me.

Q: Is that the biggest difference between normal business and the doujin world?

Nasu: Working as a team means that everyone needs to understand that the company is the crux of everything. Without that, it's just for fun. But if people don't work seriously, then no profit will come in. I really think that it's the great companies out there who have good relationships between the creative and business sides.

Q: From a solely game creation perspective, what are the big differences and limitations between the doujin and business worlds?

Nasu: Doujin games don't get caught up in planning or by company things. In short, they can do whatever they want...I suppose. The only problem, I guess, would be freedom of expression, whether or not it would be something that would involve the EOCS (Ethics Organization of Computer Software)...generally, though, they can let their imaginations run loose. I think the rest of the differences would be on a technological/sales level. I think one of the biggest differences is that with doujin games, people sort of buy them for fun. It's a place where you can put out a soft, weaker game and not really be scolded for it. That's what it means to be doujin.

Q: And you, Urobuchi-san?

Uro: Well, I put out doujin games from a company, so... (laughs)

Nasu: Hahaha! (laughs)

Uro: It took some dodgy political dealings for me to get into this situation, though... (laughs) It's all about bargaining tactics. How comfortable a creative zone I can get for myself. That's why I need to be cold about my own works at certain points. If I cut this off, then it'll help this other aspect come to life. I calculate it like that. As the commander, I always focus on how to achieve victory under the conditions I've been dealt. Which is the victory method that takes the least amount of casualties...one's wallet really has nothing to do with creativity, which is sad in a way. (laughs) Yes, it's very sad.

Q: Finally, do you have any messages for your fans?

Uro: Hmm. To be honest, I expected to hear people say "Your career ended with Kikokugai, but if people will really enjoy this new stuff I'm putting out...then I'll keep on doing it! (laughs)

Nasu: Yes, please continue.

Uro: If they'll appreciate me, then I'll keep going on forever. Uwahh...listen to how shameless I sound. (laughs)

Nasu: I also thought Tsukihime had a lot of problems, but was surprised to see how much people enjoyed it, so I thought 'well, maybe I'll just do as I please from here on out.' (laughs) Seriously, though, I want to try and keep my unique rhythm while aiming for a better product that will grab a wider audience. I want to try and be true to the old saying that "the third one is always better than the second." So I hope people are excited... (laughs)

Uro: So you aren't going to say anything about future releases? (laughs)

Nasu: Ummm... (He throws out some considerations.) Cut that part! (laughs)

All: (Loud laughter)

Recorded on April 26, 2002, in Hiyokoya, Akihabara.